Common questions and support for the answers to them.
Below are quotes from various websites and/or links that take you to information that answers some commonly misunderstood questions. We chose to offer you links so you could look up for yourself the answers quickly on the internet rather than book quotes but you can also find the same information in many books if you wish to purchase some.
We also chose to offer you links from outside the US to show that the breeders in those countries believe and support these answers, this is not something we made up in America.
This is just a small sampling, there are many more. There also may be some other opinions but we believe that the things we present here are overwhelmingly represented.
Note: Many of these are very old time breeders who have had their breeding programs passed down through generations and definitely would know what was true.
Does anyone besides the US still use the term Andalusian ?
YES !
Spain:
-
http://www.andalusians-for-you.com/definitions.html
(Interesting information within this page, we suggest you read through it.)
-
http://www.yeguadasusaeta.com/ingles/andalusianhorses-purespanishhorses.html
Costa Rica: http://www.8estrellas.co.cr/history.html
France: http://www.equiberique.com/FS_E_Core.htm
Germany: http://www.spanish-horse-connection.com/start.php?site_language=2
Australia: http://www.miramar.com.au/
Italy: http://www.excalibur-pre.it/Allevamento.aspx?lang=en
Mexico: http://www.lasmorerias.com/ingles/index_eng.htm
Sweden: http://www.teamunicorn.net/
Many MORE countries: http://www.horseweb.com/links/Breeds_Breeders/Andalusians/index.htm
We have not been to all of these links to see if they put the word Andalusian on their site but they all sure take advantage of being listed under "Andalusian Breeders". Could it be because the word "Andalusian" is so well known?
Still more: http://www.kilimanjaroranch.com/areas-served-andalusion-horses-breeding-ialha.htm
Every horse breed that is a descendant, still lists "Andalusian" as the ancestor. Statues, sculptures, paintings and art, shows, all titled Andalusian, puzzles, calendars, mouse pads, t-shirts, stickers, articles in magazines and items too numerous to mention all over the world, use the word Andalusian.
Were they at one time all registered in the same stud book ? YES
Did that stud book separate into two? YES
When? In 1966
Was the Lusitano stud book/breed then created ? YES
When? 1966 -1967
Note: There were various other studbooks kept by breeders for both Spanish horses and Lusitanos throughout history. We are referring to the "official" stud books where they were actually registered and considered a breed or later, breeds.
Quotes are from actual pages to save you time but you are invited to verify at the links provided.
"For long there was only one studbook for Lusitano and Andalusian (PRE) horses. After the introduction or rather the separation of the Portuguese Studbook in the early 60s the Portuguese kept their studbook "open" and have continued to accept new PRE stallions into their studbook. Review of the Lusitano studbook shows that virtually all PRE stallions that were brought into the Lusitano studbook originated from the Bocado line."
Chiron - Lusitano Nederland
http://www.lusitano-nederland.nl/indexe.htm
"The Coudelaria Nacional (national stud, like Alter Real) has used Spanish (Cartujano) blood as well (like Habanero VIII and Japaz), especially because a few decades ago the Spanish and Portuguese studbooks used to be one common studbook. Then, the Spanish wanted to create their own (Andalucian) studbook, especially to be able to breed on a larger scale for the export. This was not always an advantage for the quality of the horses. The Portuguese continued on their own way, which resulted in a quite closed breed which was hardly known outside Portugal. Recently, the Spanish wanted to combine the two studbooks again - which the Portuguese didn't want, but which says enough about the quality of the Lusitanos!"
Quinta da Bétula - Puro Sangue Lusitanos
http://home.kpn.nl/lusitanos/breeding.html
"The Iberian rose tremendously to the occasion, conveying a natural understanding of the bull's astounding power and instinct, yet even in such confrontration, continued to obey his Master. The strongest theory thought to explain the reason's behind the Iberian's division, thus creating the Lusitano and Andalusian, is based on the influence of this amazing tradition."
Casal dos Mogos
http://breederslusitanos.synthasite.com/history.php
Note: next is one of the olderst breeders of Portugal in the same family since 1897. Here he refers to a "private stud book" and then the start of the Lusitano stud book in 1967.
"The Stud Oliveira e Sousa is one of the oldest stud farms in Portugal, staying in the same family, and in business since 1897.
It was Antonio Jose da Silva, originally from Riyadh, the initiator, since the production horses was at the time, a crop production in agriculture.
Horses and mares were used in livestock management, as draft animals in threshing and transportation of grain from the countryside to the floors.
Since then, their records are a private "Stud Book" Private, since the end of the nineteenth century that are the origins and use of horses so that we can not fail to consider that it is the "Stud Book Oliveira e Sousa" animals whose characteristics result of a careful selection.
Arrived this day, the mares and their foals are included in full in the Stud Book da Raca Lusitana, have an exceptional bone structure, good conformation, and character essential for the use of the horse and OLIVEIRA SOUSA in various equestrian disciplines, or simply in recreational use.
When into 1967 there was initiated the genealogical Book of the Portuguese race, one of the first ones went to coudelaria OLIVE TREE and SOUSA joining having approved of visa and when 23 mares from his iron registered of immediate one, in the Reproducers' Book, proving so the general correction of the effective one and the right selection carried out."
Coudelaria Oliveira e Sousa
Note: translated using Google translate
http://www.coudelariaoliveiraesousa.pt/default.asp
"Apart from that, many well known families have been breeding Lusitanos and bulls since generations. The Yeguada Militar in Cordoba was established in Spain and in 1956 the Jerez stud. Official registering of Pura Raza Espanola horses started in 1912, but Cartujano horses have been registered since much longer. The Carthusian monks from just outside Jerez have managed to maintain the purity of this special bloodline since the 16th century. Cartujanos have been used to purify other bloodlines including the Lusitano. In 1967 the Portuguese and Spanish studbooks were separated."
Centro Lusitano
http://www.centro-lusitano.nl/?Lusitano_history:History%26nbsp%3B2
Did the horses compete together at shows? YES
* In the 1940's and 50's there used to be a fair in Madrid – Spain, called "Feria del Campo": it was the highlight of the year for the country people of the Peninsula. It offered Iberian championships in Classical Dressage, Doma Vaquera and Acoso y Derribo. These open classes were often won by the Lusitanos and Luso-Spanish bred horses that came to compete from Portugal. As recently as 1975, some halter classes (and performance classes) at the Jerez de la Frontera Fair, were still open to Lusitanos. (Giacomini JP)
* HELCOSE in 1972 she earned two Silver medal. One in Spain (Madrid Fair) and another in Portugal (Feira Nacional). She was Reserve Championship of both countries. A true champion.
Excerpts confirming from the APSL (Lusitano) studbook listing show awards (Premios ) from shows in Spain (Madrid) and Portugal
Have we established that the bloodlines were together ? YES
"Spanish and Portuguese studbooks used to be one common studbook."
"Recently, the Spanish wanted to combine the two studbooks again - which the Portuguese didn't want, but which says enough about the quality of the Lusitanos!"
http://ranchcardoso.biz/Horses/Breeds/Lusitano/PSCN/
To be clear, throughout ancient history they were the same breed. In more recent history, the 5 foundation horses of the Lusitano Breed:
The 1989 edition of the Portuguese Stud Book , the Livro Genealogico Portugues de Equinos, recognizes six "heads of lineage" that made an important contribution to the Lusitano breed. These "heads of lineage" are the founding sires and dam of the three main lineages of the Lusitano. ANDRADE, VEIGA, and COUDELARIA NACIONAL (Portuguese State Stud).
These horses are:
~ AGARENO: Veiga (MV) stallion Born: 1931 Sire: Lidador (MV) Dam: Bagocha (MV)
~ PRIMOROSO (PURE SPANISH ) : a Dominquez Hermanos (DH) stallion Born: 1927 Sire: Presumido (DH) Dam: Primorosa II (DH)
~ DESTINADO (PURE SPANISH ) : Dominquez Hermanos (DH) stallion Born: 1930 Sire: Alegre II (DH) Dam: DESTINADA (DH)
~ MARIALVA II: stallion from Antonio Fontes Pereira de Melo (APM) Born: 1930 Sire: Marialva (APM) Dam: Campina (APM)
~ REGEDOR: Alter Real stallion, (AR) Born: 1923 Sire: Gavioto (AR) Dam: Gavina (AR)
~ HUCHARIA: A Coulderaria Nacional mare, Born: 1943 Sire: Cartujano (APT) Dam: Vizcaina (MRB)
Prior to the separation of the studbooks breeders often spoke about using each others horses. Even after the split officially making them two different breeds, Portugal still kept its studbook open to Spanish horses, used them in their breeding programs and registered them, not as Spanish/Porguguese (S/P's) but as Lusitanos. They only closed their studbook to Spanish horses a few short years ago.
"It is enough to say that the Portuguese government itself allows that in order to improve the quality of their horses, and there will be reasons for it, the Lusitano mares may be covered with Purebred Spanish horses and still have their offspring considered Pure Lusitano."
~ Juan Carlos Altimirano.
One of the first Lusitano horses imported into the United States was a stallion that was half Spanish and half Portuguese or what today is known as an S/P, his name was Dom Rossio/Nohedjaz. Bred by Estado Portugues – Coudelaria Nacional (the Portuguese state stud), he was foaled 1/13/71. His sire was Habanero VIII – Pure Spanish and his dam was Dona – Pure Lusitano. His registered name in the APSL – Lusitano studbook is Nohedjaz.
Spanish breeder opinion :
An excerpt from an interview with a well known, long time breeder in Spain, Francisco Lazo Diaz better known as Paco Lazo. What qualifies him to speak about this? Paco is probably the only Spanish breeder who derives most of his his income from breeding and selling horses. He has been dedicated to the breeding community by holding office many times in the Spanish breeders association and his long career of producing magnificent horses has earned him the greatest respect from his colleagues.
~ Paco: " I must say that for over 20 years I have advocated the reunion of both stud books. I really believe that the only people being hurt by this decision are the Spanish breeders who loose the opportunity to buy a Portuguese horse when they need one. The Portuguese have kept their door open and benefit very much from an occasional Spanish horse. "
"The main argument of the Spanish against reunion is commercial fear, not a genetic difference. If a breeder dies and his sons divide the broodmares up and develop their own slightly different style of horse, twenty years later, they're still the same horse of the same breed only differentiated by the taste of their owner. This is what happened between Portugal and Spain. They used to come and compete here with us at the Feiria Del Campo in Madrid, sometimes they won, sometimes we won.
It is a great pity that the Cria Caballar took the position of separation years ago and that nobody stood up to it at the time. There have been many meetings over the years to reunify, but they have not been successful. I believe that at this time pressure from the outside, particularly from the United States could help change this situation. "
(Interview by JP Giacomini, Spanish Bit 1993, Lusitano Journal 1997)
Does anyone in Spain, besides Paco Lazo still admit they were once of both bloodlines ? YES
This is a farm Right in the middle of Andalusia, Antequera, an area close to Malaga, Granada, Seville and Cordoba:
"The P.R.E. is the result of crossing two breeds, populations, ONE orthoide from the north and ONE convex from the South both growing up and installed in the Iberian Peninsula since long time ago."
http://www.pre-elite-int.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=2
Have we established that they were all called Andalusians ? YES
"Prior to the 1960s, the Iberian-type horse was called the Andalusian in both Portugal and Spain. In 1966, the Lusitano name was adopted by Portugal after a studbook separation by the two countries."
( Edwards, The Encyclopedia of the Horse, p. 107)
Why today does the Spanish Horse sometimes have different characteristics than the Lusitano?
According to several sources the biggest factor accounting for the differences in the two breeds as we see them today is the purpose for which each was bred for and used. This actually started when bullfighting on horseback was stopped in Spain the horses of Spain and Portugal took on different purposes. The horses in Spain being bred for riding, driving, parades and dressage and the horse of Portugal for athletism for the bullfights. From there it was only a matter of preference in characteristics by the breeders, not of a difference in the heritage or blood. Just as in any breed of horse there are different types bred for different purposes.
In closing:
These were the stories, facts and accounts that were known at the time the Andalusian came to America. These are the stories, facts and accounts that the registry in this country was founded on and the reason the name Andalusian was chosen. In the years since, the facts and accounts have been twisted, changed and distorted in this country because we are all very new to this horse's history. When you don't know the history you tend to go with the current information disregarding the past.
The Andalusian didn't even set foot in the US until the 1960's. It was not allowed to be exported out of Spain until then. When you have not experienced or at least taken the time to learn the history of something you tend to start from a point in time that is very recent and move forward without knowing why.
Yes, at this time the Spanish horse is called a PRE and the Portuguese horse is called a Lusitano and there are now separate registries for each. Yes, the Spanish horse now is usually known as an Andalusian but that is not the history of this horse it is only a recent development. The PRE and the Lusitano are NEW breeds the Andalusian is the ancestor to both and is a much older breed which could consist of both bloodlines and existed prior to the PRE and Lusitano. 
Yes, due to the selective directions breeders took, there can now be distinctive differences in type between the Spanish horse and the Lusitano horse today, though many of them can still be mistaken for one another.
No matter what the stories are, the "Foundation" of these horses, the history of these horses has not changed and we believe this historic horse should be preserved into the future, the Foundation horse called the Andalusian.
We also feel it is unfair to hear claims that limit that Foundation history, the Andalusian name to just the Spanish horse. The Portuguese horse was a part of that same history as well as they were all one and the same then.
"The horse of Kings", "The Royal Horse of Europe" the horse in art, the horse in sculpture, the horse that is 25,000 years old, was the Spanish horse AND the Portuguese horse, either of which most certainly could be of both Spanish and Portuguese blood !
There is no question that the horses of the Iberian Peninsula were all one breed.
There is no question that this one breed was called Andalusian for centuries.
There is also no question that we as a registry are in agreement with these facts and want to protect this original foundation horse from extinction and ensure it and its legacy into the future.
Of the Andalusian …….
"He is the noblest horse in the world, the most beautiful that can be. He is of great spirit and of great courage and docile; hath the proudest trot and the best action in his trot, the loftiest gallop, and is the lovingest and gentlest horse, and fittest of all for a king in his day of triumph." Duke of Newcastle 1667.
<BACK TO TOP>